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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 13:01:23 GMT 5
In all of history, not even one single verified account of a mature male grizzly killed by a tiger, and mountainlord continues arguing. Amazing!
Neither can mountainlord give me even one logical reason why a tiger would act completely out of "big cat chatacter" and go face-to-face with a grizzly to defend a carcass.
Consider this: A tiger is a full-time predator. To survive he must stalk, ambush, and kill some animal, usually a large herbivore, to survive. A grizzly is an opportunistic omnivore. He has a huge assortment of food choices. Tigers occasionally hunt bears for food. Bears do not hunt tigers for food. When a grizzly does hunt, his two most common prey choices are red deer and wild boar - same as the tiger's. It is within the character of big cats to attempt to eliminate predator competition. Not so with the grizzly. So this gives the tiger another reason to hunt and kill a grizzly. Food and predator elimination; and yet we - to this day - have not one single verifiable account of a mature male grizzly ever killed by a tiger.
Tiger enthusiasts will argue - how many tigers killed by a grizzly? -Very few. A hungry grizzly does not go tiger hunting. Lot's of stuff out there that would taste better than cat meat. But a grizzly will track a tiger just to displace him from his kill. A tiger ( in typical cat behavior ) will not go face-to-face with a bear as big as he is or bigger. Very few tigers ever killed by grizzlies because a tiger will not fight with a grizzly.
Consider that in India, there are occasionally man-eating tigers. It has been learned that to be safe, a man can wear a face-mask on the back of his head. Tiger are ambush predators, and do not like a face-to-face confrontation.
When a tiger is feeding on his kill, and sees a large male grizzly approaching, the tiger walks away. He relinquishes his kill to the stronger bear. No clues left behind for a biologist to read in the footprints, no sign of a struggle. No evidence. All we have to go on is basic cat behavior. Observation of cougars and black bears and of leopards and sloth bears - in both cases bear-to-cat the same size ratio as tiger-to-grizzly ... that is our evidence. These cats will relinquish a carcass without any physical contact with the bear.
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Post by creature386 on Dec 31, 2019 13:52:16 GMT 5
Just deleted this post from mountainlord (addressing Cerato):The reason was that the fight between you two has been going on for far too long and this comment in particular added so little to the "discussion" that I didn't think anything would be lost. That being said, I can understand Cerato's point about the bans. If you work at, say, 20 different companies and they all kick you out, do you think it's because all bosses have conspired to be mean to you? Maybe you know more about the bans than we do. Maybe they where all unjustified, but you don't want to explain, for some reason. If so, that's fine. But if you don't want to counter Cerato's accusations, why continue this fight? Only continue your discussion with him if you have concrete responses. If you want to stop talking to him, don't worry. I can delete any unprovoked attacks on you by Ceratodromeus in this case.
I can easily explain why I was banned of two other forums, but I never because I thought its of no relevance to this thread. And its a waste of my time to be honest. For no reason Cerato just started talking shit and trolling, when I'm on this thread to discuss tigers vs Brown bears.
I don't even want to waste anymore of my time talking to him. But if you guys wanna hear why I was banned off other forums, then I'll explain why. No problem.We can bury this then. No more Cerato vs mountainlord, please (unless it has to do with bear vs tiger)! |
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Dec 31, 2019 14:13:41 GMT 5
The reason you were banned is really super simple, if you act like this every time someone disagrees with your disgusting fanatacism. also lol, just....lol at all of this. It made me laugh harder than someone reporting the shitmountainlord comment. I love this just so much. "big boys" dont screech at other people online if they don't agree with what someone else says, but okay champ. lol Sure, bury it. But don't be surprised if it comes up in a page or two.  |
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Post by creature386 on Dec 31, 2019 14:35:19 GMT 5
I promised mountainlord that I would delete any further comments on this debate, but it seems like you really want to have the last word.
So, how about putting your comment in a spoiler? That way, you can have the last word, but mountainlord doesn't have to see your comment unless he wants to continue.
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 15:26:45 GMT 5
Highlighed in yellow.......... AMBUSH.....so face to face fights are basically out of the equation, thanks for proving that.  As for the bottom part, those bears afraid are subadults and females. In any case, the subadults and female specimens of BOTH animals, bears and tigers, are afraid, even more so tigers as bears steal 35% of tigers kills with the tigers DEPARTING to avoid confrontation, we have the account from biologist Dale Miquelle.  |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 18:24:44 GMT 5
In all of history, not even one single verified account of a mature male grizzly killed by a tiger, and mountainlord continues arguing. Amazing! Neither can mountainlord give me even one logical reason why a tiger would act completely out of "big cat chatacter" and go face-to-face with a grizzly to defend a carcass. Consider this: A tiger is a full-time predator. To survive he must stalk, ambush, and kill some animal, usually a large herbivore, to survive. A grizzly is an opportunistic omnivore. He has a huge assortment of food choices. Tigers occasionally hunt bears for food. Bears do not hunt tigers for food. When a grizzly does hunt, his two most common prey choices are red deer and wild boar - same as the tiger's. It is within the character of big cats to attempt to eliminate predator competition. Not so with the grizzly. So this gives the tiger another reason to hunt and kill a grizzly. Food and predator elimination; and yet we - to this day - have not one single verifiable account of a mature male grizzly ever killed by a tiger. Tiger enthusiasts will argue - how many tigers killed by a grizzly? -Very few. A hungry grizzly does not go tiger hunting. Lot's of stuff out there that would taste better than cat meat. But a grizzly will track a tiger just to displace him from his kill. A tiger ( in typical cat behavior ) will not go face-to-face with a bear as big as he is or bigger. Very few tigers ever killed by grizzlies because a tiger will not fight with a grizzly. Consider that in India, there are occasionally man-eating tigers. It has been learned that to be safe, a man can wear a face-mask on the back of his head. Tiger are ambush predators, and do not like a face-to-face confrontation. When a tiger is feeding on his kill, and sees a large male grizzly approaching, the tiger walks away. He relinquishes his kill to the stronger bear. No clues left behind for a biologist to read in the footprints, no sign of a struggle. No evidence. All we have to go on is basic cat behavior. Observation of cougars and black bears and of leopards and sloth bears - in both cases bear-to-cat the same size ratio as tiger-to-grizzly ... that is our evidence. These cats will relinquish a carcass without any physical contact with the bear.
These people are the real experts!
What part of all of this can't you comprehend?? - I have posted the hard evidence proving all of this, whereas you just spam your assumptions, made-up theories and blatant lies. - You never post any accounts because you have none, period.
You very clearly don't understand big cat behaviour. Lions, tigers, leopards and cougars all differ in their nature. Out of all the big cats, the tiger is the ONLY prolific bear-killer that will habitually hunt and kill bears for food. Other cats don't do this. Tigers are also far more vengeful, vindictive and ruthless than other felines. Again, this makes a big difference.
And according to observations by biologists and hunters, male tigers will even kill bears solely on principle:
Tigers have a totally different nature to other big cats. Their more ruthless, vengeful and less tolerant of other predators in their domain. But you clearly fail to understand such a simple fact.
Statistics, accounts and observations from leading expert authorities confirm that tigers dominate Brown bears in kill-disputes. FACT.
Again with this nonsense. Brobear, tigers regularly hunt bears for food, not "occasionally". Why do you lie so much?
I have posted studies where claws of ADULT bears were found repeatedly in the excreta of tigers. Confirming that adult bears are frequently killed by tigers too. Yet you still continue to deny the blatant truth.
Here's scientific studies which confirm that bears are regularly hunted and killed by tigers, and are a very important prey item for tigers especially during the summer months, when bears are at their healthiest conditions.
Across all sites, tiger diet varied seasonally, with tigers consuming more bear, and less wild boar biomass during the snow-free months:
In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well...
The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period...
www.researchgate.net/publication/275837048_A_comparison_of_food_habits_and_prey_preference_of_Amur_tiger_Panthera_tigris_altaica_Timmink_1984_at_three_sites_in_the_Russian_Far_East
A recent paper written by the Russian biologist: K.N. TKACHENKO
His study also showed that bears comprised a (31.2%) significant proportion of the tigers diet:
This study was also posted by Peter on Wildfact.
So the reality is, that tigers "backing down" from adult male Brown bears in kill-disputes and tigers "occasionally" hunting bears is only a figment of Brobears imagination. Nothing more.
The proven facts are, that tigers dominate bears over kill-disputes, bears generally fear tigers and that tigers regularly hunt and kill bears. Including adult bears.
Edited out the insults.
Well, some of them. It's nice that you have put your fight with Ceratodromeus to an end. However, with your aggressive posting style, you're practically begging for more such confrontations.
Consider this as a warning. Don't treat ecological discussions like politics.
Creature. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 18:37:42 GMT 5
Yeah, that was referring to tigers "predating" bears, not fighting them. And that account also completely refutes and debunks your made-up claims that a tiger will not choose a large male Brown bear as prey. So I have easily refuted you on that point.
And again, you have provided not a single piece or shred of proof that backs up your wild claims. Prove to me with EVIDENCE that those bears that are afraid of tigers are only sub-adults and females?
It also refers to adult male bears, because I have posted THREE accounts of large, full-grown male Brown bears showing blatant fear of tigers. So yeah, that statement includes all bears, even large adult male bears.
As for bears "stealing" 35% of kills, that is referring to FEMALE tigers. Go read chapter 19 to see the full context of those cases. It was only FOUR cases, LOL.. And not all of these were direct usurps. In most cases the bear will wait for the tigress to have her fill, leave the area and then it will take the kill. So before you get all excited about that, go read the context to those accounts.
Large male Brown bears strictly avoid male tigers, and they rarely directly usurp kills from female tigers also.
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:39:31 GMT 5
Just because someone has a Russian name does not make him an expert on bear/tiger relations: there are no witnesses at a tiger kill-site. But we can look at how a tiger acts when faced by a bear:
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:40:17 GMT 5
Tiger meets bear:
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:40:54 GMT 5
Tiger meets bear:
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:41:48 GMT 5
Tiger meets bear:
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:42:25 GMT 5
Tiger meets bear:
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 18:43:18 GMT 5
This is basic big cat meets bear behavior. The cat has no desire to go head-to-head with a bear.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 18:43:22 GMT 5
Every single video you just posted involved a young juvenile tiger, nowhere near an adult. And you know it.
Your getting very, very desperate now. LOL!
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