Ussuri Brown Bear vs Siberian Tiger

[dinosauria101]

brobear, that's a good analogy, but have you actually any ACCOUNTS of it on hand? You can follow in ML's steps here somewhat; the more the better.

[elosha11]

That's the thing. Say what you want about ML, but despite his shenanigans, he actually posted some evidence about siberian tiger/brown bear interactions from biologists, natives, hunters, etc. You can critique the reliability of his sources, but at least he posted them. Brobear? Not so much. Unless I've missed them in this 44 page thread. Lots of opinion, speculation, not much actual evidence.

[brobear]

Mar 8, 2020 3:32:14 GMT 5 Ceratodromeus said:

Im not even surprised you didn't give a coherent answer. A hasty copy-paste is not sufficient evidence. No source given, no context for your  copy paste paragraph, i am not even surprised there is so infrequently a winning side in these debates. Dear lord.

And I'm not surprised that you do not recognize coherency when you see it.

[brobear]

Mar 8, 2020 4:29:25 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

brobear , that's a good analogy, but have you actually any ACCOUNTS of it on hand? You can follow in ML's steps here somewhat; the more the better.

Do I have any actual accounts of what? Grizzly behavior? Cat behavior? 
A field biologist might spend a full year in the Russian taiga and not get even a fleeting glance at an Amur tiger. When he does see a tiger, even for a brief moment, he feels himself fortunate. 
There are no witnesses at a tiger kill site to observe what happens  there. The biologist depend on footprints in the dirt and look for any signs of a struggle. When the biologist sees both tiger and bear footprints going and coming from the remains of a carcass, and no sign of a struggle, then he reports that the two predators share the carcass one at a time. The footprints cannot tell the biologist that the tiger leaves the carcass because he sees the approach of the big mature male grizzly. 
What can be learned from footprints is very limited. But we can learn from studying both bear and cat behavior. And this tells the story.

[brobear]

"We were on a game drive in Yala National Park, Sri Lanka when we heard about a leopard bathing under a tree. We made our way over to the location where we found the leopard lying almost out of sight. Just before we left a Sri Lankan Sloth bear walked out of the bush straight into view. We were all stunned as the bear made its way over to the leopard. On the way it rolled over onto its back then carried on straight to the leopard. The leopard was surprised and bolted."

shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1200/sloth-bear-meets-leopard

[brobear]

shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1208/ecology-behaviour-protected-area-lankan

The ecology and behaviour of a protected area Sri Lankan leopard(Panthera pardus kotiya) population

"Of all (leopard) kills, 13.7% were secured in trees. Wild
boars were detected scavenging from 38.8% of 49
monitored carcasses. Other scavengers included
ruddy mongoose (Herpesthes smithii; 36.8%),
Large-billed Crow (Corvus macrorhnchos; 22.5%),
land monitor (8.2%), mugger crocodile (Crocodylus
palustris; 6.1%), sloth bear (Melursus ursinus;
4.1%) and Hawk Eagle (Spizeatus cirrhatus; 2%). A
small but widespread population of jackals (Canis
aureus) inhabits the study area, but these were
never observed to directly scavenge from a leopard
kill."

[brobear]

One December morning a few years ago, I witnessed the unusual sight of a sloth bear feeding on a buffalo calf. shaggygod.proboards.com/

I came upon a fresh leopard kill about 5 metres off the Talgasmankade road in Yala National Park. The leopard had obviously been disturbed by our approach and had not consumed any part of the kill; it had, however, made an incision about 10 cm wide in the skin of the stomach. As the leopard was not in evidence, we left the area, but returned at around 2.30 that same afternoon.

We spotted the leopard, a young male, on a tamarind tree about 50 metres into the jungle. I parked the jeep about 30 metres from the kill, and whiled away the time taking photographs of the leopard on the tree. Suddenly, I heard rustling sound coming from behind the jeep. A sloth bear was approaching the kill, downwind, and therefore oblivious of my presence. The leopard, seeing the bear, slipped down the tree and went towards the dead calf, obviously anxious to protect its spoils.

The bear took no notice of him, but kept sniffing the air and following the drag-mark made by the leopard earlier on, which meant he was not taking the most direct path to kill. The leopard sped towards the bear, belly to the ground, making low snarling, hissing sounds. The bear did not relent however, even as the big cat sprang at him thus three more times. Outdone, and in no mood for a fight, the leopard retreated to a small hollow in the thorny scrub.

The bear did not bother to pursue him. The confrontation had been a noisy one, but with absolutely no physical contact. The bear then opened up the calf's stomach and began sucking on the gory juices. Then, using his paw, he tore out the intestines and ate them. Next, while holding down the carcass with one paw, he opened out the young buffalo's chest with a single sweep of the other paw and fed on the heart and lungs, sucking up all the blood in the cavity. It was interesting to note that he did not eat any of the 'flesh' (muscle). After feeding for about an hour and a half, the bear sat down patiently, cleaned his paws and face, rolled on the sandy road, and then ambled off in the same direction from whence he had come.

Some minutes after his departure, the leopard came out of the thicket and started feeding. We left him to his meal.

www.lankalibrary.com/wlife/slothbear.htm
                                                                       

[brobear]

Quote from above post:
The bear did not bother to pursue him. The confrontation had been a noisy one, but with absolutely no physical contact.   
 

domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/277/bear-basics-all-bears?page=2

In this source the leopard is called a major 'predator' of the sloth bear yet we know male sloth bears and even female sloth bears are immune to leopard predation. Female sloth bears are larger than most male leopards yet exceptionally large male leopards reach the same weight as a female sloth bear (185 to 200 pounds vs 210 pounds). Surprisingly no records of leopards killing female sloth bears even by ambush.

[brobear]

Who drinks first? Leopard and sloth bear sharing a waterhole @nagzira Navegaon Tiger Reserve 
 

[brobear]

shaggygod.proboards.com/

Grizzly Bears view cougars as "Feline Gravy Train"

"Cougars, however, generally give the bears a wide berth. Grizzlies have less competition with cougars than with other predators such as coyotes, wolves, and other bears. When a grizzly descends on a cougar feeding on its kill, the cougar usually gives way to the bear. When a cougar does stand its ground, the cougar will use its superior agility and its claws to harass the bear yet stay out of its reach until one of them gives up, usually the cat."

Though grizzlies likely kill few cougars, they may see the cats as a feline gravy train. Between 1990 and 1995, wildlife biologist Kerry Murphy and other HWI researchers monitored 113 cougar kills (mostly deer and elk) in Glacier and Yellowstone and discovered that bears (grizzlies and blacks) were claiming a significant share of the spoils. Bruins visited about one of every four cougar kills, robbing the feline owner of as much as 26 percent of its food requirement, sometimes for several days running. "It appears," says Murphy, "that competition for kills creates significant gains for bears and significant losses for cougars."

When carnivores clash: what happens when hunter becomes hunted? - includes related article on saving wolves

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1169/is_n4_v36/ai_20925079/

"Grizzly and Black bear visited 24% of cougar kills in GNP and YNP and displaced cougars from their kill 10% of carcasses. Bears gained up to 113% and cougars lost 26 % of their respective daily requirements from these encounters. Bear predation and incomplete consumption of carcasses (especially salmon) provide food for a variety of scavengers."

COSEWIC: Assessment and Update Status Report of the Grizzly Bear Ursus arctos in Canada

dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/CW69-14-166-2002E.pdf

[brobear]

news.mongabay.com/2018/02/mountain-lions-often-lose-to-wolves-and-bears-study-finds/amp/

Mountain lions often lose to wolves and bears, study finds

Shreya Dasgupta Shreya Dasgupta
10 months ago

Puma. Photo by Rhett A. Butler.
The large, secretive puma (Puma concolor) may be at the top of its food chain, but it is not always the king of its territory.

Native to the Americas, the puma, also called the mountain lion, cougar, catamount or panther, often shares its habitat with several other top predators, such as wolves, bears, coyotes and jaguars. But when the hunting grounds of these predators overlap, the puma is often the loser, researchers report in a new study published in PeerJ.

By reviewing the scientific literature on competition between pumas and other predators, researchers have found that wolves, grizzly bears, black bears and jaguars often dominate pumas. In fact, pumas are subordinate to at least one other top carnivore in 47.5 percent of their range across North and South America. In turn, pumas seem to be dominant only over coyotes and maned wolves.

“I recognized the hole in my own understanding of mountain lions — I knew so little about their relationships with other animals,” said lead author Mark Elbroch, lead scientist for puma program at the global wild cat conservation organization Panthera. “A review seemed the ideal way to search for and find research on the subject.”

Pumas are often in competition with other top predators. And they don’t always win. Picture by Panthera.
Among the top predators, wolves appear to have the strongest influence on mountain lions, dominating pumas on most encounters, Elbroch’s team found. This is likely because wolves hunt in packs and outnumber the generally solitary puma. Wolves often harass pumas, the authors write, and are also known to kill them.

Some studies also show that wherever the ranges of pumas and wolves overlap, pumas tend to avoid open areas and restrict their movements to forests and steep areas where they can easily escape from wolves. Pumas also sometimes switch their prey when living alongside wolves.

The interactions between grizzly and black bears and pumas is less studied, the researchers found. But the studies that exist show that bears often displace pumas from their kills. So pumas not only lose the food they hunted, but have to spend additional time and energy hunting more prey.

Bears taking meals from pumas. Video by Mark Elbroch/Panthera.

A young male mountain lion (follow the red arrow) in northwest Wyoming just pushed off his kill by the wolf in the foreground. Photo by Mark Elbroch/Panthera.
The study’s findings are especially important given how pumas are still being intensively hunted over much of their range in a bid to reduce conflicts with people and livestock, Elbroch said.

Hunting has wiped out mountain lions from the entire eastern half of North America, except for a small population in Florida. Today, pumas occur in parts of western North America, and Central and South America, where they continue to be hunted. In some of these areas, where wolves and bears are recolonizing and recovering, wildlife managers need to be cautious about hunting limits for pumas, the authors write.

“New wolves mean life for mountain lions just got a little bit harder,” Elbroch said. “So increasing pressure on mountain lions is the exact opposite of what our review suggests is needed.

“Ecosystems are complex, and we must be cautious,” he added. “When we hunt species already affected by numerous other species, we may unintentionally cause rapid declines in that species. To manage wildlife effectively, we must first understand how they fit into their ecosystems.”

However, there is a dearth of studies looking at interactions between pumas and other apex carnivores, Elbroch said. And the available research does not go deep enough to link the effects of competition on puma survival.

“It’s tough being a mountain lion, which only makes their resilience and ability to live among and in between us that much more remarkable,” Elbroch said. “They continue to amaze me.”

[brobear]

I think we also pretty much established here that grizzly and black bears of all sizes dominate pumas. 
 
                    

[brobear]

COUGARS ARE CHASED OFF THEIR KILLS BY BEARS AND WOLVES.
 

[brobear]

I can show more, but this should be enough. It is in the nature of a bear of the genus Ursus to displace other predators including the big cats from their kills. Cats are ambush predators. It is not in the nature of a cat to go head-to-head against an adversary in defense of a carcass ( other than their own species ). BY far, in most cases there is absolutely no physical contact between the predators. Sometimes the cat will attempt to bluff the bear, but will not make physical contact.
When we base what takes place at a tiger kill site in the Russian taiga by bear and cat behavior, it all becomes crystal clear. The size ratio between a *Western black bear and a cougar / a sloth bear and a leopard / and an Amur tiger and a Russian grizzly are all fairly equal. There is no reason to suspect that the tiger would behave any differently than the cougar or the leopard.

[brobear]

Mar 8, 2020 6:57:23 GMT 5 elosha11 said:

That's the thing. Say what you want about ML, but despite his shenanigans, he actually posted some evidence about siberian tiger/brown bear interactions from biologists, natives, hunters, etc. You can critique the reliability of his sources, but at least he posted them. Brobear? Not so much. Unless I've missed them in this 44 page thread. Lots of opinion, speculation, not much actual evidence.

Footprints in the dirt does not provide evidence ( my entire point )... but there does exist some evidence.