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Post by creature386 on Jul 17, 2014 16:54:46 GMT 5
As obvious as it should be who would win at weight parity in this match, so I don't even see the point of comparing what is more effective. BlackIce has compared getting scratched by a CL with getting punched by a human in the post Vodmeister quoted, so I believe it is obvious that he doesn't talk about parity.
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Post by theropod on Jul 17, 2014 17:59:56 GMT 5
Yeah, I know, it was vodmeister who made the parity comparison.
I think it should be possible to agree that getting scratched up by a good-sized felid would be quite painful.
This is not a single, clean cut with a kitchen knife we are talking about, and neither is it a massive traumatic cut by a shark’s jaws that sends you into shock instantly. It is an extensive, mostly superficial type of laceration.
That will certainly hurt a lot (not saying that it would be better if it didn’t hurt), although I don’t know for how long. Maybe comparable to being whipped (I would lie if I claimed to have the kind of experience with that which runic apparently has with fighting dogs, but it wouldn’t have been such a successful punishment if it was painless), at least that would be a similar type of injury.
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Post by malikc6 on Jul 18, 2014 15:37:10 GMT 5
Humans actually punch harder and better than chimps simply based on the thumbs.
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Post by Runic on Jul 19, 2014 5:28:22 GMT 5
I agree. Even though I believe claws are better than blunt trauma when both fighters weigh the same, with a huge size and strength advantage, it gets simply a lot easier to effectively use blunt trauma. In terms of dealing damage, I’d say that should be obvious to anyone. If both have the same strenght, it’s obviously the sharp claws that will do more damage than the blunt punch or slap. They were talking about the pain this causes. And actually, pain has to do with damage, that’s the very point there is to even feeling it, even though that doesn’t always work out perfectly. As regards whether I’d rather be hit by a club, or by the same club with the same force but with a sharp blade attached, I’d chose the first, because the latter will be way more dangerous. As regards which one would be more painful, I have no idea and I don’t intend to try (and I don’t think anyone else here has the basis to make the comparison either). However this comparison (and the chimp-vs-cougar example) doesn’t work, because in reality there is typically much more force behind blunt trauma or crushing than there is behind equivalent slicing or stabbing injuries, which will likely make the former more painful because they affect a larger area. Btw if an 80kg chimp can break your jaw, so can an 80kg cougar, although I doubt either could by means of a swipe, as the cougar will "merely" tear the face off with its claws, and the chimp cannot really punch and likely won’t be able to focus the force in its blow sufficiently (not intending to say there aren’t many terrible things a chimp could do to your face and jaw by other means…). Both would definitely give you a concussion. A haymaker swing (which chimps can do) will have a much higher chance of breaking your jaw than a paw swipe. The powers irrelevant it's simply how it's enacted. |
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Fragillimus335
Member
Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jul 19, 2014 6:59:02 GMT 5
I would assume a human like me (200lbs) would win regularly against a 45lb and lighter CL. However, I wouldn't feel quite as confident with a 50-60lb one… :0. Maybe 40-60% victory for me. I think the shear speed and agility of the cat is being ignored. I played with a 2 lb house cat kitten, and it could get to my face pretty darn fast! lol
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Post by malikc6 on Jul 19, 2014 7:04:11 GMT 5
I would assume a human like me (200lbs) would win regularly against a 45lb and lighter CL. However, I wouldn't feel quite as confident with a 50-60lb one… :0. Maybe 40-60% victory for me. I think the shear speed and agility of the cat is being ignored. I played with a lb house cat kitten, and it could get to my face pretty darn fast! lol You're 200 pounds? I am very sure you would win against a 60 pound clouded leopard 9/10. You're a big dude and probaly have speed of your own. |
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Fragillimus335
Member
Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jul 19, 2014 7:09:26 GMT 5
I would assume a human like me (200lbs) would win regularly against a 45lb and lighter CL. However, I wouldn't feel quite as confident with a 50-60lb one… :0. Maybe 40-60% victory for me. I think the shear speed and agility of the cat is being ignored. I played with a lb house cat kitten, and it could get to my face pretty darn fast! lol You're 200 pounds? I am very sure you would win against a 60 pound clouded leopard 9/10. You're a big dude and probaly have speed of your own. Haha, more like 210, but I'm hoping to change that! lol. I'm not fat, but not super fit either. I have a large torso for my size, and people usually guess I'm 170-180lbs. I know the weight advantage is huge, but I've never experienced anything with the weaponry and speed of a Clouded leopard. Like I said, I think I could get the majority of the wins, but I wouldn't give myself more than 70% chance of victory. Cats have a propensity for attacking faces, which I am not fond of… |
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Post by malikc6 on Jul 19, 2014 7:28:21 GMT 5
If you're not overweight, then you're likely stronger than the average man.
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Post by Runic on Jul 19, 2014 12:24:18 GMT 5
You're 200 pounds? I am very sure you would win against a 60 pound clouded leopard 9/10. You're a big dude and probaly have speed of your own. Haha, more like 210, but I'm hoping to change that! lol. I'm not fat, but not super fit either. I have a large torso for my size, and people usually guess I'm 170-180lbs. I know the weight advantage is huge, but I've never experienced anything with the weaponry and speed of a Clouded leopard. Like I said, I think I could get the majority of the wins, but I wouldn't give myself more than 70% chance of victory. Cats have a propensity for attacking faces, which I am not fond of… Don't want them scratching your ruggedly handsome face eh? |
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Post by theropod on Jul 19, 2014 14:04:31 GMT 5
And a "haymaker swing" does not enact the power very efficiently, it’s not like a punch. To break bone, you don’t just need power, you need speed and focusing too. I can swipe as hard as I want, if I don’t make a fist I’m unlikely to do much actual damage.
The chimp likely doesn’t have a stronger forelimb (although whether the cat will even use all its strenght I don’t know, as it doesn’t have to) and a felid of equivalent weight, does it?
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Post by Runic on Jul 19, 2014 15:23:02 GMT 5
And a "haymaker swing" does not enact the power very efficiently, it’s not like a punch. To break bone, you don’t just need power, you need speed and focusing too. I can swipe as hard as I want, if I don’t make a fist I’m unlikely to do much actual damage. The chimp likely doesn’t have a stronger forelimb (although whether the cat will even use all its strenght I don’t know, as it doesn’t have to) and a felid of equivalent weight, does it? Hence I said it comparitively. A haymaker > swipe in chances to break bone |
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Post by theropod on Jul 19, 2014 17:17:54 GMT 5
So how does that make having claws a disadvantage?
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Post by Runic on Jul 24, 2014 13:55:31 GMT 5
So how does that make having claws a disadvantage? Never said it was but it's obvious a punch or similar is gonna disorient more than a swipe. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Nov 11, 2014 7:05:25 GMT 5
So how does that make having claws a disadvantage? Never said it was but it's obvious a punch or similar is gonna disorient more than a swipe. Disagree, if both animals are equally strong, then a fist without claws is inferior to a swipe with claws (IMO). |
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Post by theropod on Nov 12, 2014 1:02:45 GMT 5
I’m with vodmeister on this. Having claws will be far more effective against soft tissues, and it doesn’t preclude the swipe from being powerful. The effects of posture during the strike (punch vs swipe) on the force and its focusing is another matter entirely and must be regarded seperately.
Now, unlike for example a chimp, a human can actually punch (not just "haymaker swing"), but I think the effects of a mere punch on sizeable animals will be quite limited in the majority of cases, while humans themselves are poorly protected by their thin skin.
I think a clouded leopard is small enough for the human’s punch to work on it tough (given that it can properly punch it of course). But a human punch versus the pawswipe of a similar-sized cat–it doesn’t take a lot of genius to say which is more damaging, and that’s because the cat has claws while the human is purely relying on strenght (and its strenght just isn’t enough).
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