Southern Elephant Seal vs. Great White Shark

[dinosauria101]

Southern Elephant Seal - Mirounga leonina
The Southern Elephant Seal (Mirounga leonina) is one of the two extant species of elephant seal. It is both the largest pinniped and member of the order Carnivora living today. The seal gets its name from its great size and the large proboscis of the adult males, which is used to make extraordinarily loud roaring noises, especially during the mating season. The Southern Elephant Seal is distinguished from the Northern Elephant Seal (which doesn't overlap in range with this species) by its greater body mass and a wider proboscis. This seals' size shows extreme sexual dimorphism, possibly the largest of any mammal, with the males typically five to six times heavier than the females. While the females average 400 to 900 kilograms (880 to 2,000 lb) and 2.6 to 3 meters (8.5 to 9.8 ft) long, the bulls average 2,200 to 4,000 kilograms (4,900 to 8,800 lb) and 4.5 to 5.8 meters (15 to 19 ft) long. The record-sized bull, shot in Possession Bay, South Georgia on February 28, 1913, measured 6.85 meters (22.5 ft) long and was estimated to weigh 5,000 kilograms (11,000 lb). The maximum size of a female is 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb) and 3.7 meters (12 ft). When at the subantarctic or Antarctic coasts, the seals can also consume shellfish, nothothens, lanternfish, krill, cephalopods or even algae.


Great White Shark - Carcharodon carcharias
The great white shark, scientific name Carcharodon carcharias, also known as the great white, white pointer, white shark, or white death, is a large lamniform shark found in coastal surface waters in all major oceans. It is known for its size, with the largest individuals known to have approached or exceeded 6 metres (20 ft) in length, and 2,268 kilograms (5,000 lb) in weight. This shark reaches maturity at around 15 years of age and can have a life span of over 30 years. The great white shark is arguably the world's largest known extant macropredatory fish and is one of the primary predators of marine mammals. Great whites display countershading, having a white underside and a grey dorsal area (sometimes in a brown or blue shade) that gives an overall mottled appearance. Great white sharks, like many other sharks, have rows of serrated teeth behind the main ones, ready to replace any that break off. When the shark bites it shakes its head side to side, helping the teeth saw off large chunks of flesh. Males reach maturity at 3.5–4.0 metres (11–13 ft) and females at 4.5–5.0 m (15–16 ft). Adults on average are 4–5.2 m (13–17.1 ft) long and have a mass of 680–1,100 kilograms (1,500–2,400 lb). Females are generally larger than males. It is widely accepted that the great white shark can reach 6.1 m (20 ft) in length and 1,900 kg (4,200 lb) in weight. The maximum size is subject to debate because some reports are rough estimations or speculations performed under questionable circumstances. Great white sharks are carnivorous and prey upon fish (e.g. tuna, rays, other sharks), cetaceans (i.e., dolphins, porpoises, whales), pinnipeds (e.g. seals, fur seals, and sea lions), sea turtles, sea otters, and seabirds. Great whites have also been known to eat objects that they are unable to digest.

Credit to Wikipedia

[elosha11]

Southern elephant seals are massive. Great whites could readily take females, but I'm not sure they could handle the really biggest 8000 plus pound bulls. That's way bigger than even the largest great white.

There was one limited record I saw once suggesting great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals in one particular location. I'll try to find the source again.

[dinosauria101]

^I actually remember when I first joined Carnivora and took a peek at the thread, the great white was overwhelmingly favored because of the seal's lack of defenses underwater (some even calling it a mismatch in favor of the shark). Same with the hippo, who seems to be on combat parity with the great white. However, I brought this over here in order to see if anyone would give the seal a chance. With that in mind, what do you think?

[elosha11]

This source states large sharks have been known to prey on southern elephant seals, but does not give its back up source. "Large southern elephant seals have few predators, but killer whales, leopard seals, and some large sharks are known to feed on this species." oceana.org/marine-life/marine-mammals/southern-elephant-seal

I recall finding a more primary source somewhere that indicated great white shark predation on southern elephant seals had been documented.

If push came to shove, and I had to pick a winner, I'd feel comfortable backing the shark against any elephant seal up to its size range, and a bit higher. 8000 pounds is pushing it. 13,000 pound southern elephant seal is almost certainly out of the question.

I doubt the seal would be agile enough to catch the shark and do damage, particularly since the shark usually attacks and does it biggest damage by ambush. But I don't know if the shark can do enough damage on such a monster to cause it to bleed out before it can get to shore.

[elosha11]

Species recorded in the diet of white sharks caught in New Zealand waters includes bony fishes, other sharks, stingrays, eagle rays, blue penguins, New Zealand fur seals, New Zealand sea lions, southern elephant seals, leopard seals, common dolphins, Hector’s dolphins and whale blubber (presumably scavenged from whale carcasses)

www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/marine-fish-and-reptiles/sharks-mango/white-shark/

From wikipedia: "Great white sharks (Carcharodon carcharias) have hunted elephant seals near Campbell Island." Presumed source for this quote: McMahon, C. R., Burton, H. R., & Bester, M. N. (1999). First-year survival of southern elephant seals, Mirounga leonina, at sub-Antarctic Macquarie Island. Polar Biology, 21(5), 279–284.

[dinosauria101]

Great study elosha!
I know of some more, but the site's blocked from where I am. Should have access soon though.

[rock]

im gonna give this to the shark ,because in the wild they are known to prey on elephant seals

[dinosauria101]

^I also favor the shark, but what is your reasoning? Just because grizzly bears predate on American bison doesn't mean you'd favor one over a bison in a head-to-head fight, for example.

[dinosauria101]

elosha11 here are the studies

Off California, sharks immobilize northern elephant seals (Mirounga angustirostris) with a large bite to the hindquarters (which is the main source of the seal's mobility) and wait for the seal to bleed to death. This technique is especially used on adult male elephant seals, which are typically rather larger than the shark at an average range of 1,500 to 2,000 kg (3,300 to 4,400 lb), and are potentially dangerous adversaries.[51][52] Most commonly, though juvenile elephant seals are the most frequently eaten at elephant seal colonies
Wikipedia

Sources (51,52)

Le Boeuf, B. J., Crocker, D. E., Costa, D. P., Blackwell, S. B., Webb, P. M., & Houser, D. S. (2000). Foraging ecology of northern elephant seals. Ecological monographs, 70(3), 353-382.
Haley, M. P., Deutsch, C. J., & Le Boeuf, B. J. (1994). Size, dominance and copulatory success in male northern elephant seals, Mirounga angustirostris. Animal Behaviour, 48(6), 1249-1260.

I know this is the slightly smaller northern elephant seal, but this technique could just as easily work here, as well

[rock]

Apr 24, 2019 3:17:27 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

^I also favor the shark, but what is your reasoning? Just because grizzly bears predate on American bison doesn't mean you'd favor one over a bison in a head-to-head fight, for example.

the shark would be larger , have a stronger bite force and would be strong enough to drown the seal plus it would not have to breath oxygen unlike the seal . but if this took place in shallow waters it can go 50/50 , but overall i favor the shark for these reasons

[dinosauria101]

Yes, I agree with those reasons.

[sam1]

Just because seal is stated as the prey does not mean a shark can go head on against an adult bull weighing three times as much.
Note that as one of the predators of this seal, a leopard seal was given. Does that mean a leopard seal can beat a southern elephant seal?

If a 1100kg great white dared to face off against a freaking 3000kg elephant seal without ambush, it would simply be overwhelmed. The seal could grab a great white by the pectoral fin and trash it around.
Not sure if that would be enough for some fatal damage or inducing tonic immobility but something tells me the  shark would have enough of it.

[dinosauria101]

I favor the great white in water simply due to greater (pun intended) mobility. It could land a bite on the rear, then just wait for the seal to bleed and weaken.

[sam1]

Apr 26, 2019 0:39:51 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

I favor the great white in water simply due to greater (pun intended) mobility. It could land a bite on the rear, then just wait for the seal to bleed and weaken.

So you're chosing the victor solely focusing on one possibilty (shark bitting the rear of the seal) and dismissing the other possibility proposed by me even while it would be a more likely one in an equal term, no ambush scenario? That doesn't seem logical.

Anyway I need to note a few things in this case, as it looks like a lot of assumptions gets thrown out for granted and out of context here.
a) Sharks preying on adult male northern elephant seals.
That does not translate into sharks being superior combatants against bigger seals.
Not one of these predations is specifying the respective size of both animals.
An adult n.e. seal can be just 1500kg, and particularly large great white can easily surpass that. See what I mean?
b) bitting the rear, as if that's a trivial thing to do against an animal 3x the size.

You can't just assume that if a shark A can engage into biting an equally sized seal B, that shark C can do the same to a 3x larger seal D.

At equal sizes, the shark is perhaps confident enough and is probably powerful/robust enough that it can afford bitting into the rear and withstand the trashing reaction without too much trauma/risk.

But if the target animal is large enough, it is not just a simple matter of taking a slice off any more.
Unlike those of dolphins, the hind limbs/flippers of an elephant seal are bony and if backed by a 3000+ kilogram leverage, well..hope you can see the picture.

[dinosauria101]

^As I said earlier, I can recall from when I was new on Carnivora that the great white was heavily favored there. I was banned from the archives so I cannot show you, but since everyone agreed on those reasons, I thought I did too.
Maybe I missed something?