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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 0:04:44 GMT 5
AvA is someone a few high school kids invented, it doesn’t have formal rules to begin with  I actually lean towards the shark, at least for large individuals of both (the mass advantage of the pinniped would be too much at average weight, but if we’re talking about a record length 7m, record weight 3.3t, record jaw size great white against a record 5t pinniped it may stand a good chance), although it would have great difficulty. But when push came to shove, it would have a big advantage in weaponery and presumably also better mobility. A well-placed bite by the shark could end the fight. A bite by the pinniped probably not, meaning it would need a big size, strength and durability advantage. I’m also making the assumption that a bull is being assumed here, as with a female this would be a non-contest. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 0:07:49 GMT 5
^I was moreso referring to all the websites like this I've seen. Fossils of extant species are frequently taken into account.
And yeah, I agree it wouldn't be easy vs a bull, but a female is an easy win for the great white.
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 28, 2019 0:31:43 GMT 5
I don't really see the need to include prehistoric sharks in the analysis. I just simply noted them to point out that the shark's natural size may have been impacted by man's environmental intrusions.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 0:34:17 GMT 5
^Yeah same here, but if anyone starts claiming it's a mismatch in favor of the seal, at least we'd have that to make it more fair.
I know of a Nat Geo video in which a (southern?) elephant seal was attacked by a great white but I do not know the name. Anyone else know what I'm talking about?
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Post by sam1 on Apr 28, 2019 11:57:15 GMT 5
Wait..what's this about not proposing the average individuals? Isn't that the most meaningful way to do these kind of topics? If a topic says GWS vs southern elephant seal, then that should by default mean an average individuals of both. I really thought that's not even a question. Taking a 6m 2500kg great white as a representative of the species is like taking Shaquille o'neal as the representative of human species. When I analyze these type of interspecific conflicts, I like to think about realistic confrontations between the species, not hypotheticals that never would happen in real life. So yes, I agree an average size adult great white (although depending on the geographical regions 1000 kms is likely below average weight for an adult female) would not likely attack a 3000 kg southern bull. However, merely average size great whites don't attack adult bull size northern elephant seals either. Only the large shark adults, male or female, will predate bull elephant seals. However, in those real life conflicts, which pit animals closer to the same size, the seals decidedly gets the worst of it. They are killed or injured badly, whereas the shark rarely takes any damage, at least none which has been reported. Given how few great whites there are, it's quite a stretch to say a 2500 kg great white is as rare as a Shaquille O'Neal. We know historically by the fossil record that great whites likely exceeded such sizes before man's impact on the environment. In any event, great whites of two tons or more, which really isn't all that uncommon for adults with large prey source, would be a potential threat to the average size bull southern elephant seal, i.e one weighing 3000 kgs or so. However, the really giant ones are likely beyond the capabilities of even the largest great whites. Still, I see no evidence that elephant seals have ever caught or injured great whites, so until I see that, I see most likely either a predation by the shark, or a failed attempt which injures the seal to some degree, but does not kill it. Sorry but that did not make sense to me.. We simply need to use average individuals, or large/maxed sized individuals respectively, in which case that should be specified. Also the points you are trying to make are skewed towards the shark. I mean, here's an example of such narrative applied differently - there have been records of wolves taking adult mooses single handedly. Therefore in a 1v1 wolf vs a moose topic, a wolf should be favored? Also, what evidence of a seal-caused injury you are asking for? A scratch, a mark, a rake? Old sharks are typically full of those. Again, show me the evidence of an 3000kg SES being killed by a shark in the 1000-1500kg range(or killed at all by a shark). Also, show me the evidence of a 5000kg SES being killed at all, by anything. Clearly, if a GWS>SES then that should have have happened, ultimately. And you guys act like it doesn't matter and that there's no reason for it not happening. |
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Post by theropod on Apr 28, 2019 13:34:04 GMT 5
The only 5t elephant seal on record was killed, by humans, so the evidence you are demanding is impossible to provide.
But I agree it is a biased assumption to use anything but average or extreme sizes for both (preferably average).
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 28, 2019 16:29:10 GMT 5
When I analyze these type of interspecific conflicts, I like to think about realistic confrontations between the species, not hypotheticals that never would happen in real life. So yes, I agree an average size adult great white (although depending on the geographical regions 1000 kms is likely below average weight for an adult female) would not likely attack a 3000 kg southern bull. However, merely average size great whites don't attack adult bull size northern elephant seals either. Only the large shark adults, male or female, will predate bull elephant seals. However, in those real life conflicts, which pit animals closer to the same size, the seals decidedly gets the worst of it. They are killed or injured badly, whereas the shark rarely takes any damage, at least none which has been reported. Given how few great whites there are, it's quite a stretch to say a 2500 kg great white is as rare as a Shaquille O'Neal. We know historically by the fossil record that great whites likely exceeded such sizes before man's impact on the environment. In any event, great whites of two tons or more, which really isn't all that uncommon for adults with large prey source, would be a potential threat to the average size bull southern elephant seal, i.e one weighing 3000 kgs or so. However, the really giant ones are likely beyond the capabilities of even the largest great whites. Still, I see no evidence that elephant seals have ever caught or injured great whites, so until I see that, I see most likely either a predation by the shark, or a failed attempt which injures the seal to some degree, but does not kill it. Sorry but that did not make sense to me.. We simply need to use average individuals, or large/maxed sized individuals respectively, in which case that should be specified. Also the points you are trying to make are skewed towards the shark. I mean, here's an example of such narrative applied differently - there have been records of wolves taking adult mooses single handedly. Therefore in a 1v1 wolf vs a moose topic, a wolf should be favored? Also, what evidence of a seal-caused injury you are asking for? A scratch, a mark, a rake? Old sharks are typically full of those. Again, show me the evidence of an 3000kg SES being killed by a shark in the 1000-1500kg range(or killed at all by a shark). Also, show me the evidence of a 5000kg SES being killed at all, by anything. Clearly, if a GWS>SES then that should have have happened, ultimately. And you guys act like it doesn't matter and that there's no reason for it not happening. Kind of odd that you think I'm favoring the shark when I stated that the seal would most likely "win" meaning not get killed, in a conflict between average specimens or absolute max size individuals. I simply mean that the shark would usually win more or less at parity, which given the results of shark v even the largest northern elephant seals, would seem rather indisputable. I must also note that while you think a very large southern elephant bull would bite the shark by the fin, and do real damage or kill it, there is no documented evidence of which I am aware, that a seal has ever been able to inflict any serious injury on a great white. A scratch, rake, etc - even assuming they are caused by the elephant seal - are relatively minor injuries, when you compare the damage the shark is doing to the seal. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 16:44:38 GMT 5
By that principal, we'd be able to assume, at average and max, 1-2.5 ton shark vs 3-5 ton seal. With all the above taken into consideration, who'd you guys favor in deep water?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 17:03:17 GMT 5
^Yeah same here, but if anyone starts claiming it's a mismatch in favor of the seal, at least we'd have that to make it more fair. I know of a Nat Geo video in which a (southern?) elephant seal was attacked by a great white but I do not know the name. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? Anyone else know of a video like that? I think it'd really benefit this thread but I do not know what it's called. |
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 17:42:13 GMT 5
you mean that dude of carnivora? Yep, you got that right. Have you ever been a member on Carnivora or had a run-in with him? You'd know EXACTLY how nasty he is if you did. i see |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 17:49:46 GMT 5
Oh yeah, he's horrid. In fact, we've got a 20 page thread in the member's section that's full of his antics.
Anyhow, think you may know that video I referenced?
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 18:02:06 GMT 5
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 28, 2019 18:03:53 GMT 5
Unfortunately, wrong videos.
But they would help out! Thanks for finding them!
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
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Post by rock on Apr 28, 2019 18:04:31 GMT 5
Unfortunately, wrong videos. But they would help out! Thanks for finding them! np |
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Post by sam1 on Apr 28, 2019 23:30:32 GMT 5
Sorry but that did not make sense to me.. We simply need to use average individuals, or large/maxed sized individuals respectively, in which case that should be specified. Also the points you are trying to make are skewed towards the shark. I mean, here's an example of such narrative applied differently - there have been records of wolves taking adult mooses single handedly. Therefore in a 1v1 wolf vs a moose topic, a wolf should be favored? Also, what evidence of a seal-caused injury you are asking for? A scratch, a mark, a rake? Old sharks are typically full of those. Again, show me the evidence of an 3000kg SES being killed by a shark in the 1000-1500kg range(or killed at all by a shark). Also, show me the evidence of a 5000kg SES being killed at all, by anything. Clearly, if a GWS>SES then that should have have happened, ultimately. And you guys act like it doesn't matter and that there's no reason for it not happening. Kind of odd that you think I'm favoring the shark when I stated that the seal would most likely "win" meaning not get killed, in a conflict between average specimens or absolute max size individuals. I simply mean that the shark would usually win more or less at parity, which given the results of shark v even the largest northern elephant seals, would seem rather indisputable. I must also note that while you think a very large southern elephant bull would bite the shark by the fin, and do real damage or kill it, there is no documented evidence of which I am aware, that a seal has ever been able to inflict any serious injury on a great white. A scratch, rake, etc - even assuming they are caused by the elephant seal - are relatively minor injuries, when you compare the damage the shark is doing to the seal. Well the poll gives the impression I'm the only one favoring the seal in the literal sense of the topic. I still don't see the point in discussing the "GWS vs SES" at parity unless the topic specifies so. You can see that I also don't favor the seal at parity at all, heck I even give a good chance to the shark at maxed sizes. But that's irrelevant. Maybe I wasn't clear about how I imagine the seal beating the shark. Grabbing it by the fin and using its superior momentum and strength from that point doesn't mean it needs to do any major damage at all. It's simply a win by making the shark shake off and retreat. Elephant might end up messed up and bloody from those sharp teeth but if the shark is the one who backed off that's still a clear win for the seal in my book. |
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