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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 16:22:10 GMT 5
I think I'd agree. Those teeth don't look too efficient for dispatching a great white *unless I've missed something, of course. You missed that I haven't said anything about "dispatching" a shark. You missed my whole premise of CONTROLLING the shark. And that it's all the far larger and far stronger mammal needs to do in order to win. How exactly might it do so? |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 17:33:22 GMT 5
You missed that I haven't said anything about "dispatching" a shark. You missed my whole premise of CONTROLLING the shark. And that it's all the far larger and far stronger mammal needs to do in order to win. How exactly might it do so? As I said, by grabbing it to the dorsal or pectoral fin, (or even the tail, whatever it can get a hold on) holding the grip and use its superior mass and momentum. It might not be enough to tear off the fin (and consequently drown it), but I think such position would make shark instinctively give up and go into retreat. So I believe it would try to shake off and flee( and probably succeed in doing so thanks to its superior propulsion power) Unlike the seal, great whites aren't fighters.. they are killers tuned for deadly strike in favorable(ambush) conditions. If the situation becomes dangerous shark's instinct is a logical one, self preservation before anything else. It has no benefit in engaging into a fight that can risk its long term survival. That all being said, I have to say I'm having second thoughts about this battle. Apparently SES average "only" 2200kg and 4.2-4.5m..if we take an adult GWS female averages 1000kg and 4.5m, the seal doesn't seem to have enough of a size advantage for me to clearly favor it. I'll say, a stalemate. |
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Post by elosha11 on May 1, 2019 18:04:49 GMT 5
^Seeing that no evidence exists for a seal ever being able to grab, hold or control a great white's tail or flipper, I find such evidence too speculative to even consider. The way the seal wins is by either being so large that it deters an attack from taking place, or being so large that an attack fails and leaves a wounded but not dead seal.
I would still not favor a mere 1000 kg shark v a 2200 kg average southern bull (and what's the source for that?), but if that's truly the average, than it doesn't surprise me that great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals, as that would fall fairly comfortably in their prey size range.
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 18:31:50 GMT 5
^Seeing that no evidence exists for a seal ever being able to grab, hold or control a great white's tail or flipper, I find such evidence too speculative to even consider. The way the seal wins is by either being so large that it deters an attack from taking place, or being so large that an attack fails and leaves a wounded but not dead seal. I would still not favor a mere 1000 kg shark v a 2200 kg average southern bull (and what's the source for that?), but if that's truly the average, than it doesn't surprise me that great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals, as that would fall fairly comfortably in their prey size range. And how would you describe such evidence? Serious question, I want an answer. Are you really saying the seal would rather just stand there letting the shark bite it and not do the most common sense and natural thing for an elephant seal bull (facing, biting and tearing at the adversary trying to kill it). Second question..I don't see much SES bulls with healed GWS bite wounds, so how exactly, other than that, would a size be a deterrent if the seal is unable (for some crazy reason) to bite the shark in the first place? How would the size help the seal in any way if he can't bite his way out of trouble? Is it going to help him tail slap or outrun the shark? Let me tell you, a defenseless, slow, 3-5 ton pinniped full of blubber would attract great whites like a magnet. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 18:51:57 GMT 5
How exactly might it do so? As I said, by grabbing it to the dorsal or pectoral fin, (or even the tail, whatever it can get a hold on) holding the grip and use its superior mass and momentum. It might not be enough to tear off the fin (and consequently drown it), but I think such position would make shark instinctively give up and go into retreat. So I believe it would try to shake off and flee( and probably succeed in doing so thanks to its superior propulsion power) Unlike the seal, great whites aren't fighters.. they are killers tuned for deadly strike in favorable(ambush) conditions. If the situation becomes dangerous shark's instinct is a logical one, self preservation before anything else. It has no benefit in engaging into a fight that can risk its long term survival. That all being said, I have to say I'm having second thoughts about this battle. Apparently SES average "only" 2200kg and 4.2-4.5m..if we take an adult GWS female averages 1000kg and 4.5m, the seal doesn't seem to have enough of a size advantage for me to clearly favor it. I'll say, a stalemate. Yeah, same. I think I'd take my earlier point of a stalemate with best odds to the shark. |
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Post by elosha11 on May 1, 2019 19:15:12 GMT 5
^Seeing that no evidence exists for a seal ever being able to grab, hold or control a great white's tail or flipper, I find such evidence too speculative to even consider. The way the seal wins is by either being so large that it deters an attack from taking place, or being so large that an attack fails and leaves a wounded but not dead seal. I would still not favor a mere 1000 kg shark v a 2200 kg average southern bull (and what's the source for that?), but if that's truly the average, than it doesn't surprise me that great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals, as that would fall fairly comfortably in their prey size range. And how would you describe such evidence? Serious question, I want an answer. Are you really saying the seal would rather just stand there letting the shark bite it and not do the most common sense and natural thing for an elephant seal bull (facing, biting and tearing at the adversary trying to kill it). Second question..I don't see much SES bulls with healed GWS bite wounds, so how exactly, other than that, would a size be a deterrent if the seal is unable (for some crazy reason) to bite the shark in the first place? How would the size help the seal in any way if he can't bite his way out of trouble? Is it going to help him tail slap or outrun the shark? Let me tell you, a defenseless, slow, 3-5 ton pinniped full of blubber would attract great whites like a magnet. I would describe such evidence if it existed -- which it does not. To my knowledge, there has never been any documented evidence of any elephant seal inflicting series damage in a bite on a great white, and such minor cuts/scratches that do exist (assuming the seal caused them) are around the shark's head, not its tail or fins. Since the realistic conflict that actually takes place (not human hypotheticals), is usually the shark taking a large bite to the hindquarters, followed by bleeding and feeding after the seal has died or greatly weakened. (At times it does appear the shark may attack the head first as some elephant seals have been found completely or almost completely decapitated with no other obvious injuries before the shark starts to feed). It may be at times the seal escapes and suffers an injury but not death. I'm not sure in such scenarios if the shark attacks more than once, or if the seal deters it in some way, because such interactions have not been recorded. As to attacks on SES bulls, I don't particularly know of any recorded case, just a few general statements that great whites have attacked southern elephant seals. As to size being a deterrent, it's just that. A 3 to 5 ton elephant seal might thrash after being bitten and potentially injure the shark. Or the shark could recognize there's a good chance it wouldn't kill such a huge animal and decide not to waste the time and energy. A large seal isn't defenseless, but its size, not its bite, is its greatest defense. |
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Post by theropod on May 1, 2019 20:07:27 GMT 5
sam1 : Of course there is no use case for molars. But molars are where the strongest bite forces would be excerted. If it used those things to excert a strong crushing bite, they’d break, plain and easy. Saying there’s no use case for molars is pretty much the same as saying there’s no use case for particularly strong bite force. I’ll give you that, it’s a prime contender for having the strongest carnivoran bite at the canines, although I think certain short-faced bears might have a shot at that too (large Arctodus and Agriotherium skulls approach average male southern elephant seal skulls in length). You probably won’t get it to excert the strongest carnivoran bite force though, because to do that it would have to use its molars, for which there’s "no use case" and which wouldn’t be able to withstand such a bite force. As for lifestyle, again, elephant seals don’t behave in a manner that would necessitate especially powerful bites. What morphology we see largely fits what we’d expect from their behaviour. The canines are massive. As is the whole skull, and the lower jaw. In elephant seal fights, there’s less biting and tearing than there is slashing and slamming, driven by the neck and the body behind it, not the jaw muscles. And I know we are already on the same page about causing damage with the bite anyway, but elephant seals seem to struggle to even breach each other’s skin. Using the canines and incisors to grip and pin the shark would also be how I’d imagine its defensive response, and I think its size advantage would most likely give it enough power to do that. All I’m saying is that those jaws aren’t especially impressive for their size, or the size of the animal for that matter. I’d also be interested in your sources for those average sizes BTW.
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 20:52:56 GMT 5
And how would you describe such evidence? Serious question, I want an answer. Are you really saying the seal would rather just stand there letting the shark bite it and not do the most common sense and natural thing for an elephant seal bull (facing, biting and tearing at the adversary trying to kill it). Second question..I don't see much SES bulls with healed GWS bite wounds, so how exactly, other than that, would a size be a deterrent if the seal is unable (for some crazy reason) to bite the shark in the first place? How would the size help the seal in any way if he can't bite his way out of trouble? Is it going to help him tail slap or outrun the shark? Let me tell you, a defenseless, slow, 3-5 ton pinniped full of blubber would attract great whites like a magnet. I would describe such evidence if it existed -- which it does not. To my knowledge, there has never been any documented evidence of any elephant seal inflicting series damage in a bite on a great white, and such minor cuts/scratches that do exist (assuming the seal caused them) are around the shark's head, not its tail or fins. Since the realistic conflict that actually takes place (not human hypotheticals), is usually the shark taking a large bite to the hindquarters, followed by bleeding and feeding after the seal has died or greatly weakened. (At times it does appear the shark may attack the head first as some elephant seals have been found completely or almost completely decapitated with no other obvious injuries before the shark starts to feed). It may be at times the seal escapes and suffers an injury but not death. I'm not sure in such scenarios if the shark attacks more than once, or if the seal deters it in some way, because such interactions have not been recorded. As to attacks on SES bulls, I don't particularly know of any recorded case, just a few general statements that great whites have attacked southern elephant seals. As to size being a deterrent, it's just that. A 3 to 5 ton elephant seal might thrash after being bitten and potentially injure the shark. Or the shark could recognize there's a good chance it wouldn't kill such a huge animal and decide not to waste the time and energy. A large seal isn't defenseless, but its size, not its bite, is its greatest defense. Yeah, a few good bites using the technique entailed in my video link is pretty much doom for the seal. Have you considered a potential stalemate in a way, elosha? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 20:54:41 GMT 5
sam1 : Of course there is no use case for molars. But molars are where the strongest bite forces would be excerted. If it used those things to excert a strong crushing bite, they’d break, plain and easy. Saying there’s no use case for molars is pretty much the same as saying there’s no use case for particularly strong bite force. I’ll give you that, it’s a prime contender for having the strongest carnivoran bite at the canines, although I think certain short-faced bears might have a shot at that too (large Arctodus and Agriotherium skulls approach average male southern elephant seal skulls in length). You probably won’t get it to excert the strongest carnivoran bite force though, because to do that it would have to use its molars, for which there’s "no use case" and which wouldn’t be able to withstand such a bite force. As for lifestyle, again, elephant seals don’t behave in a manner that would necessitate especially powerful bites. What morphology we see largely fits what we’d expect from their behaviour. The canines are massive. As is the whole skull, and the lower jaw. In elephant seal fights, there’s less biting and tearing than there is slashing and slamming, driven by the neck and the body behind it, not the jaw muscles. And I know we are already on the same page about causing damage with the bite anyway, but elephant seals seem to struggle to even breach each other’s skin. Using the canines and incisors to grip and pin the shark would also be how I’d imagine its defensive response, and I think its size advantage would most likely give it enough power to do that. All I’m saying is that those jaws aren’t especially impressive for their size, or the size of the animal for that matter. I’d also be interested in your sources for those average sizes BTW. Good point. Thinking about it more, the seal may be at serious attack risk if it tries to bite the shark. Not sure how it could use its jaws low risk. |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 22:45:16 GMT 5
sam1 : Of course there is no use case for molars. But molars are where the strongest bite forces would be excerted. If it used those things to excert a strong crushing bite, they’d break, plain and easy. Saying there’s no use case for molars is pretty much the same as saying there’s no use case for particularly strong bite force. I’ll give you that, it’s a prime contender for having the strongest carnivoran bite at the canines, although I think certain short-faced bears might have a shot at that too (large Arctodus and Agriotherium skulls approach average male southern elephant seal skulls in length). You probably won’t get it to excert the strongest carnivoran bite force though, because to do that it would have to use its molars, for which there’s "no use case" and which wouldn’t be able to withstand such a bite force. As for lifestyle, again, elephant seals don’t behave in a manner that would necessitate especially powerful bites. What morphology we see largely fits what we’d expect from their behaviour. The canines are massive. As is the whole skull, and the lower jaw. In elephant seal fights, there’s less biting and tearing than there is slashing and slamming, driven by the neck and the body behind it, not the jaw muscles. And I know we are already on the same page about causing damage with the bite anyway, but elephant seals seem to struggle to even breach each other’s skin. Using the canines and incisors to grip and pin the shark would also be how I’d imagine its defensive response, and I think its size advantage would most likely give it enough power to do that. All I’m saying is that those jaws aren’t especially impressive for their size, or the size of the animal for that matter. I’d also be interested in your sources for those average sizes BTW. This video clearly shows intense gripping, tearing and probably immense forces the jaws are subjected to..yeah they don't easily pierce each other's skin(although there's plenty of blood in this video) but that's not an indication of bite force and gripping power. The teeth are likely not long enough to pierce easily through that thick skin and blubber. If anything, relatively thick and short canines indicate a strong bite force, as shown by molosser type dogs and hyenas. Here's the source for the 2200kg average size figure. web.archive.org/web/20101026180534/http://www.pinnipeds.org/species/selephnt.htm |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 23:19:56 GMT 5
And how would you describe such evidence? Serious question, I want an answer. Are you really saying the seal would rather just stand there letting the shark bite it and not do the most common sense and natural thing for an elephant seal bull (facing, biting and tearing at the adversary trying to kill it). Second question..I don't see much SES bulls with healed GWS bite wounds, so how exactly, other than that, would a size be a deterrent if the seal is unable (for some crazy reason) to bite the shark in the first place? How would the size help the seal in any way if he can't bite his way out of trouble? Is it going to help him tail slap or outrun the shark? Let me tell you, a defenseless, slow, 3-5 ton pinniped full of blubber would attract great whites like a magnet. I would describe such evidence if it existed -- which it does not. To my knowledge, there has never been any documented evidence of any elephant seal inflicting series damage in a bite on a great white, and such minor cuts/scratches that do exist (assuming the seal caused them) are around the shark's head, not its tail or fins. Since the realistic conflict that actually takes place (not human hypotheticals), is usually the shark taking a large bite to the hindquarters, followed by bleeding and feeding after the seal has died or greatly weakened. (At times it does appear the shark may attack the head first as some elephant seals have been found completely or almost completely decapitated with no other obvious injuries before the shark starts to feed). It may be at times the seal escapes and suffers an injury but not death. I'm not sure in such scenarios if the shark attacks more than once, or if the seal deters it in some way, because such interactions have not been recorded. As to attacks on SES bulls, I don't particularly know of any recorded case, just a few general statements that great whites have attacked southern elephant seals. As to size being a deterrent, it's just that. A 3 to 5 ton elephant seal might thrash after being bitten and potentially injure the shark. Or the shark could recognize there's a good chance it wouldn't kill such a huge animal and decide not to waste the time and energy. A large seal isn't defenseless, but its size, not its bite, is its greatest defense. So you're expecting chunks bitten off the flippers, I'm saying that's unrealistic, simply because shark's skin is extremely tough and seal's jaw and teeth aren't build for slicing, especially through something like that. The seal definitely will and can use its bite whenever possible, and hold onto whatever possible. Check out the flexibility and reach the seal demonstrates here. In head on close quarter situation, are you really telling me a 50% smaller shark(than the seal) would not get it's most exposed parts targeted immediately? And that's probably the exact reason why sharks do not attack large SES males(as evidenced by the lack of bite mark wounds). Size alone would not stop them from attacking, imo it would only attract them. Large animals that are avoided and not targeted by the GWS all have means of defending them selves..whales can actively fight by tail slapping and twisting , or simply out swim the shark..but as soon as they get too weak, they get eaten alive. Whale sharks for example, are much larger than SES but that doesn't help them in not being targeted by the GWS..instead they have developed an extremely thick skin. Great whites can bite huge chunks off of whale shark, only to find it's mostly skin and it doesn't pay off. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 2, 2019 2:44:46 GMT 5
sam1 : Of course there is no use case for molars. But molars are where the strongest bite forces would be excerted. If it used those things to excert a strong crushing bite, they’d break, plain and easy. Saying there’s no use case for molars is pretty much the same as saying there’s no use case for particularly strong bite force. I’ll give you that, it’s a prime contender for having the strongest carnivoran bite at the canines, although I think certain short-faced bears might have a shot at that too (large Arctodus and Agriotherium skulls approach average male southern elephant seal skulls in length). You probably won’t get it to excert the strongest carnivoran bite force though, because to do that it would have to use its molars, for which there’s "no use case" and which wouldn’t be able to withstand such a bite force. As for lifestyle, again, elephant seals don’t behave in a manner that would necessitate especially powerful bites. What morphology we see largely fits what we’d expect from their behaviour. The canines are massive. As is the whole skull, and the lower jaw. In elephant seal fights, there’s less biting and tearing than there is slashing and slamming, driven by the neck and the body behind it, not the jaw muscles. And I know we are already on the same page about causing damage with the bite anyway, but elephant seals seem to struggle to even breach each other’s skin. Using the canines and incisors to grip and pin the shark would also be how I’d imagine its defensive response, and I think its size advantage would most likely give it enough power to do that. All I’m saying is that those jaws aren’t especially impressive for their size, or the size of the animal for that matter. I’d also be interested in your sources for those average sizes BTW. This video clearly shows intense gripping, tearing and probably immense forces the jaws are subjected to..yeah they don't easily pierce each other's skin(although there's plenty of blood in this video) but that's not an indication of bite force and gripping power. The teeth are likely not long enough to pierce easily through that thick skin and blubber. If anything, relatively thick and short canines indicate a strong bite force, as shown by molosser type dogs and hyenas. Here's the source for the 2200kg average size figure. web.archive.org/web/20101026180534/http://www.pinnipeds.org/species/selephnt.htmNot to poke holes, but would that be enough to seriously injure (I know they have the capacity to, but great whites have rather durable placoid scales) the shark befor ethe seal itself gets injured?EDIT: never mind that, l see you've addressed it in your second post here. I think I'd give more of an edge to the shark going by that |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 2, 2019 2:48:10 GMT 5
I would describe such evidence if it existed -- which it does not. To my knowledge, there has never been any documented evidence of any elephant seal inflicting series damage in a bite on a great white, and such minor cuts/scratches that do exist (assuming the seal caused them) are around the shark's head, not its tail or fins. Since the realistic conflict that actually takes place (not human hypotheticals), is usually the shark taking a large bite to the hindquarters, followed by bleeding and feeding after the seal has died or greatly weakened. (At times it does appear the shark may attack the head first as some elephant seals have been found completely or almost completely decapitated with no other obvious injuries before the shark starts to feed). It may be at times the seal escapes and suffers an injury but not death. I'm not sure in such scenarios if the shark attacks more than once, or if the seal deters it in some way, because such interactions have not been recorded. As to attacks on SES bulls, I don't particularly know of any recorded case, just a few general statements that great whites have attacked southern elephant seals. As to size being a deterrent, it's just that. A 3 to 5 ton elephant seal might thrash after being bitten and potentially injure the shark. Or the shark could recognize there's a good chance it wouldn't kill such a huge animal and decide not to waste the time and energy. A large seal isn't defenseless, but its size, not its bite, is its greatest defense. So you're expecting chunks bitten off the flippers, I'm saying that's unrealistic, simply because shark's skin is extremely tough and seal's jaw and teeth aren't build for slicing, especially through something like that. The seal definitely will and can use its bite whenever possible, and hold onto whatever possible. Check out the flexibility and reach the seal demonstrates here. In head on close quarter situation, are you really telling me a 50% smaller shark(than the seal) would not get it's most exposed parts targeted immediately? And that's probably the exact reason why sharks do not attack large SES males(as evidenced by the lack of bite mark wounds). Size alone would not stop them from attacking, imo it would only attract them. Large animals that are avoided and not targeted by the GWS all have means of defending them selves..whales can actively fight by tail slapping and twisting , or simply out swim the shark..but as soon as they get too weak, they get eaten alive. Whale sharks for example, are much larger than SES but that doesn't help them in not being targeted by the GWS..instead they have developed an extremely thick skin. Great whites can bite huge chunks off of whale shark, only to find it's mostly skin and it doesn't pay off. Well, it's been said that, in the wild, that a injured shark is as good as dead. But here, both parties want to fight till one is dead, whatever the cost. Sort of similar to severe underrating of herbivores in animal vs animal. EDIT: Nice work everyone, keep it up! We've got over 5 times more replies to this thread in 10 days than Carnivora had for 5 YEARS! |
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