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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 0:52:10 GMT 5
Well the poll gives the impression I'm the only one favoring the seal in the literal sense of the topic. I still don't see the point in discussing the "GWS vs SES" at parity unless the topic specifies so. You can see that I also don't favor the seal at parity at all, heck I even give a good chance to the shark at maxed sizes. But that's irrelevant. Maybe I wasn't clear about how I imagine the seal beating the shark. Grabbing it by the fin and using its superior momentum and strength from that point doesn't mean it needs to do any major damage at all. It's simply a win by making the shark shake off and retreat. Elephant might end up messed up and bloody from those sharp teeth but if the shark is the one who backed off that's still a clear win for the seal in my book. Ok, well the only reason why I look at this as more or less a parity contests is because only really big great whites are documented as attacking adult male seals. So it seems kind of intuitive to believe the seal would win at "average" weights, although such a contest has virtually zero chance of actually happening. So I'd prefer to think of a really large shark v. more or less normal size adult southern bull elephant seal, in which case I'd favor the shark. In sympatric contests, where we actually know about the behaviors of the animals in question, I really do prefer to think about realistic contests that actually take place in nature, rather than what we humans deem as "fair." I just can't get this.. doesn't that criteria paint a skewed picture? Very large great white sharks attacking northern elephant seals, let's make that a picture of how southern elephant seal vs great white looks like. Just doesn't work for me. But feel free to disagree. We can agree on that:) |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 0:56:25 GMT 5
Btw just wanted to share this image. At first I was sure it's a fake but no.  |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 1:05:39 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified).  I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 1:37:07 GMT 5
Btw just wanted to share this image. At first I was sure it's a fake but no. Pretty impressive. Here's a great white who's very likely over 6 meters and 2 tons.  Although, maybe we could use them as our representatives for each? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 1:38:47 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified). I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. Not to be 'that guy', but even that pales in comparison to these jaws /Carcharodon%20carcharias%20(Great%20White%20Shark)2jaw%2013.4%20inches%20wide%2013.4%20inches%20high%20Labial%20view3.jpg) Even with that mass disadvantage, I'm still finding the great white's arsenal considerably more impressive to boot. |
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Post by spartan on May 1, 2019 1:43:10 GMT 5
Ah, alright. The reason I'm so hesitant to favor the seal is because my source (which can only be revealed via personal message or Member's Cafe) explicitly states a decisive shark victory. This may also be seen as a stalemate in a way, perhaps? Could you PM me your source, too? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 1:44:40 GMT 5
Edit: never mind, this post had sensitive info
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 2:20:02 GMT 5
Btw just wanted to share this image. At first I was sure it's a fake but no. Pretty impressive. Here's a great white who's very likely over 6 meters and 2 tons. Although, maybe we could use them as our representatives for each? As I said, don't think using a 6m shark is a good representation at all. The SES is simply around 3x more massive on average. And the animal in the photo I posted probably doesn't even approach the 3500-4000kg of a large southern male. If I had to guess, it's around 2500kg northern elephant seal. I posted that merely because it looks so surreal. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 2:21:43 GMT 5
Ah, okay.
I was moreso getting at large-ish individuals of both
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 2:29:25 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified). I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. Not to be 'that guy', but even that pales in comparison to these jaws Even with that mass disadvantage, I'm still finding the great white's arsenal considerably more impressive to boot. That's besides the point, no need to point out the obvious. What I meant by posting a skull of a the seal is to show how robust and powerful it is. It looks like it can provide the necessary grip and endure all the force produced by the mass and momentum of the struggling bodies. I.e. the seal could hold onto the shark's fin and control it |
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Post by theropod on May 1, 2019 2:58:32 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified). I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. Maybe, but I have my doubts. If they required an exceedingly powerful bite, then why are their molars so atrophied? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 9:08:35 GMT 5
Not to be 'that guy', but even that pales in comparison to these jaws Even with that mass disadvantage, I'm still finding the great white's arsenal considerably more impressive to boot. That's besides the point, no need to point out the obvious. What I meant by posting a skull of a the seal is to show how robust and powerful it is. It looks like it can provide the necessary grip and endure all the force produced by the mass and momentum of the struggling bodies. I.e. the seal could hold onto the shark's fin and control it Judging by this video (35:45 to 38:00), I think the shark would be able to do something similar: www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3x8fhCdoN8The mechanical damage output alone would be tremendous, not to mention blunt force and shaking. I'd say a few good attacks like that are all the great white needs to win. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on May 1, 2019 9:09:36 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified). I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. Maybe, but I have my doubts. If they required an exceedingly powerful bite, then why are their molars so atrophied? I think I'd agree. Those teeth don't look too efficient for dispatching a great white *unless I've missed something, of course. |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 14:14:35 GMT 5
A skull of a male elephant seal next to a 30cm ruler(subspecies not specified). I'm pretty sure these guys have easily the biggest bite force out of all carnivora species, far surpassing that of big cats, hyenas and bears. Maybe, but I have my doubts. If they required an exceedingly powerful bite, then why are their molars so atrophied? Maybe there's no use case for molars. But we can also see that the jaw structure and zygomatic arches are massive and robust, the canines are thick and well developed. A southern elephant seal male goes through life by clashing with, gripping and tearing at other massive males. Do the math. |
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Post by sam1 on May 1, 2019 14:16:59 GMT 5
Maybe, but I have my doubts. If they required an exceedingly powerful bite, then why are their molars so atrophied? I think I'd agree. Those teeth don't look too efficient for dispatching a great white *unless I've missed something, of course. You missed that I haven't said anything about "dispatching" a shark. You missed my whole premise of CONTROLLING the shark. And that it's all the far larger and far stronger mammal needs to do in order to win. |
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