|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 2:56:36 GMT 5
Would it be able to catch the shark in mid-to-deep level water? The seal would have a significant mobility disadvantage, and I find it tough to imagine it catching the much more maneuverable, faster, and agile shark.
|
|
|
|
Post by theropod on Apr 29, 2019 4:45:15 GMT 5
By that principal, we'd be able to assume, at average and max, 1-2.5 ton shark vs 3-5 ton seal. With all the above taken into consideration, who'd you guys favor in deep water? Well, like elosha I think at close to similar sizes (i.e. a very large female great white against an average-sized bull elephant seal), the shark has the clear advantage. At similar sizes, the elephant seal lacks the weapons to cause injuries that would truly threaten the shark, and I’m also not convinced that with it’s comparatively small jaws it could get enough of the shark in its mouth to grip or control it, whereas a single full-contact slicing bite to most areas of the seal would cause instantaneously debilitating and eventually fatal injury. We all know the size and power of large shark bites and the wounds they cause. If the elephant-seal outweighs the shark massively (probably over 2-fold), the size difference becomes too great, although I still think the seal would have difficulty actually fatally injuring it, both due to lack of mobility and especially its jaws not being that well-suited for the task. But with enough of a strength and size advantage, it could at least use its canines to hold onto and immobilize the shark, thereby killing it by suffocation. If we’re assuming a fight where the shark truly intends to kill the pinniped without any backing off, then that would force it to get in close and give up its mobility advantage at some point. If we assume a more realistic scenario, then I agree with Sam on what would happen, the shark would likely be forced to back off. So yeah, in the most objective scenario of C. carcharias vs specifically male M. leonina, average sizes, the seal is too much. |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 4:59:40 GMT 5
Well, okay.
I may give the seal more chance, buuuuut...still not quite sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by theropod on Apr 29, 2019 5:22:01 GMT 5
Consider this:
No great white has ever been recorded killing something that much larger than itself. The largest recorded prey items were bull northern elephant seals and neonate right whales, probably taken by large great whites that were at least similar in size to their prey. Among odontocetes (animals that may pose a serious threat, even though they are usually still outmatched by the shark at similar sizes in terms of predatory capabilities) the largest recorded prey items are 3m beaked whales, pilot whales of unspecified size and a possible failed predation attempt on a <4m Pseudorca, all likely quite a bit smaller than the shark that attacked them (in the first case, the shark was estimated at 5m, in the others no concrete evidence is available, but the probability is certainly highest at the best possible predator:prey size ratio).
So a great white's ability to kill a pinniped 3 times its size is just as undemonstrated as the pinniped's ability to kill the shark. And while the pinniped would certainly lack killing experience against a large opponent in an underwater scenario, bulls are quite aggressively. There's no reason to assume it would be unable to at least make use of its vast bulk, which could easily give it the strength to immobilize the shark if it caught it.
And the thing is, sharks die when inmobilized for an extended period of time, orcas use exactly that method as well. So the shark cannot afford to get into a prolonged contest of strength.
Whether you think bulk would provide enough protection against the shark at that size is debatable, I can't argue with that.
But by default I tend to think a smaller animal, even a powerful macropredator, would need some time to kill something 2-3 times its size, which is very problematic if it is unable to exploit some vulnerability where its prey cannot retaliate.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 5:24:36 GMT 5
Ah, alright.
The reason I'm so hesitant to favor the seal is because my source (which can only be revealed via personal message or Member's Cafe) explicitly states a decisive shark victory.
This may also be seen as a stalemate in a way, perhaps?
|
|
|
|
Post by theropod on Apr 29, 2019 5:48:42 GMT 5
In a realistic scenario, yes, as both sam and myself already wrote, though in human terms (perhaps "human" is the wrong word as they could in fact be considered quite inhuman) that would be a stalemate in the tactical sense, a seal victory, perhaps pyrrhic, in the strategic sense.
I'd like to see that source, would you care to pm me?
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 5:50:19 GMT 5
Yeah you've got a point, this is most likely a stalemate with an edge to either.
And sure, I can message you.
|
|
|
|
Post by sam1 on Apr 29, 2019 11:09:19 GMT 5
Would it be able to catch the shark in mid-to-deep level water? The seal would have a significant mobility disadvantage, and I find it tough to imagine it catching the much more maneuverable, faster, and agile shark. Just to note, while the shark does posses much superior top speed and acceleration, in close quarter maneuvering the seal should be superior. Their bodies are very flexible, as is the movement through the water. They can simply do things that sharks can't. Seal can twist and bend around its axis, and keep stationary position, from which it can move quickly in any direction. |
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Apr 29, 2019 19:49:44 GMT 5
Ah, alright. The reason I'm so hesitant to favor the seal is because my source (which can only be revealed via personal message or Member's Cafe) explicitly states a decisive shark victory. This may also be seen as a stalemate in a way, perhaps? That's very interesting. Can you send us a pm with your source's account? I've never actually heard any specific details of a shark v. southern elephant seal encounter...
|
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Apr 29, 2019 19:55:01 GMT 5
Kind of odd that you think I'm favoring the shark when I stated that the seal would most likely "win" meaning not get killed, in a conflict between average specimens or absolute max size individuals. I simply mean that the shark would usually win more or less at parity, which given the results of shark v even the largest northern elephant seals, would seem rather indisputable. I must also note that while you think a very large southern elephant bull would bite the shark by the fin, and do real damage or kill it, there is no documented evidence of which I am aware, that a seal has ever been able to inflict any serious injury on a great white. A scratch, rake, etc - even assuming they are caused by the elephant seal - are relatively minor injuries, when you compare the damage the shark is doing to the seal. Well the poll gives the impression I'm the only one favoring the seal in the literal sense of the topic. I still don't see the point in discussing the "GWS vs SES" at parity unless the topic specifies so. You can see that I also don't favor the seal at parity at all, heck I even give a good chance to the shark at maxed sizes. But that's irrelevant. Maybe I wasn't clear about how I imagine the seal beating the shark. Grabbing it by the fin and using its superior momentum and strength from that point doesn't mean it needs to do any major damage at all. It's simply a win by making the shark shake off and retreat. Elephant might end up messed up and bloody from those sharp teeth but if the shark is the one who backed off that's still a clear win for the seal in my book. Ok, well the only reason why I look at this as more or less a parity contests is because only really big great whites are documented as attacking adult male seals. So it seems kind of intuitive to believe the seal would win at "average" weights, although such a contest has virtually zero chance of actually happening. So I'd prefer to think of a really large shark v. more or less normal size adult southern bull elephant seal, in which case I'd favor the shark. In sympatric contests, where we actually know about the behaviors of the animals in question, I really do prefer to think about realistic contests that actually take place in nature, rather than what we humans deem as "fair." |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 21:59:40 GMT 5
Would it be able to catch the shark in mid-to-deep level water? The seal would have a significant mobility disadvantage, and I find it tough to imagine it catching the much more maneuverable, faster, and agile shark. Just to note, while the shark does posses much superior top speed and acceleration, in close quarter maneuvering the seal should be superior. Their bodies are very flexible, as is the movement through the water. They can simply do things that sharks can't. Seal can twist and bend around its axis, and keep stationary position, from which it can move quickly in any direction. Got any photos or videos or anything? I don't exactly disbelieve you, but I've continuously heard that elephant seals are somewhat sluggish underwater and as such, would be no match for a great white there. |
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 29, 2019 22:00:46 GMT 5
Well the poll gives the impression I'm the only one favoring the seal in the literal sense of the topic. I still don't see the point in discussing the "GWS vs SES" at parity unless the topic specifies so. You can see that I also don't favor the seal at parity at all, heck I even give a good chance to the shark at maxed sizes. But that's irrelevant. Maybe I wasn't clear about how I imagine the seal beating the shark. Grabbing it by the fin and using its superior momentum and strength from that point doesn't mean it needs to do any major damage at all. It's simply a win by making the shark shake off and retreat. Elephant might end up messed up and bloody from those sharp teeth but if the shark is the one who backed off that's still a clear win for the seal in my book. Ok, well the only reason why I look at this as more or less a parity contests is because only really big great whites are documented as attacking adult male seals. So it seems kind of intuitive to believe the seal would win at "average" weights, although such a contest has virtually zero chance of actually happening. So I'd prefer to think of a really large shark v. more or less normal size adult southern bull elephant seal, in which case I'd favor the shark. In sympatric contests, where we actually know about the behaviors of the animals in question, I really do prefer to think about realistic contests that actually take place in nature, rather than what we humans deem as "fair." Pretty good point elosha. I think we could continue this debate judging solely on interactions if we wished. Edit: 56 replies from multiple people! Not bad at all! I guess the old days really are coming back! |
|
rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
|
Post by rock on Apr 29, 2019 23:30:32 GMT 5
this is a very close fight and either one can win . to me its just who gets the first blow that will win in this case , and the shark will usally win but do not sleep on the elephant seal because he can kill the shark too . to me its more likley that the shark will comeout the victor .
|
|
|
|
Post by elosha11 on Apr 29, 2019 23:59:18 GMT 5
Given the various scenarios proposed, I think it only fair for me to change my vote to 50/50.
|
|
|
|
Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 30, 2019 0:53:31 GMT 5
And I may change mine to 'depends on the scenario' - mostly shark victories, but some stalemate-like situations
|
|
