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Post by sam1 on Apr 26, 2019 10:28:15 GMT 5
What can I say, everyone is not always right. I confidently stand by my assessment until someone shows me a verified account of a shark killing a 3x heavier, healthy adult male elephant seal.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 26, 2019 17:16:50 GMT 5
I'll see what I can find. When I get back, I'll post it due to the website being blocked from where I am
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 26, 2019 19:38:34 GMT 5
I don't think anyone is proposing that this matchup entails an average size adult GW shark v. an average size bull southern elephant seal. But really big sharks of two tons or more could be a serious threat to even adult male southern elephant seals, although probably not to the outliers weighing 4000-5000 kgs. There are a number of accounts of large great white sharks predating or at least attacking male elephant seals of up to 2700 kgs, meaning they were likely equal to or larger than the shark. In fact, in some areas, adult males get attacked more frequently than the smaller females. I posted those accounts and pics in the SW croc v. great white shark thread.
It would require a very large adult GW to have the bite volume and strength to seriously damage and cripple a full size southern elephant bull. Apparently, great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals before. Whether they were adult males is unknown to me.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 26, 2019 20:30:09 GMT 5
^I can remember you saying in that thread that the largest great whites likely weigh 3 tons or so, and I think I agree.
A 3 ton shark vs 5 ton seal has me favoring the shark in mid to deep water.
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 26, 2019 22:59:59 GMT 5
FYI, the highest credible weight I've seen for a great white is about 2500 kgs, i.e. 5500 pounds. Those are very rare. I don't know if they get to 6000 pounds nowadays. Prehistoric great whites probably exceeded 6000 pounds fairly frequently, as the fossil evidence suggest they were quite a bit larger than today's shark.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 1:23:30 GMT 5
Still, I think I'd give the edge to the great white.
(I'll post them when I can access them), but there is at least 1 account of a great white killing a northern elephant seal at a similar size ratio to this matchup.
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Post by sam1 on Apr 27, 2019 3:07:41 GMT 5
I don't think anyone is proposing that this matchup entails an average size adult GW shark v. an average size bull southern elephant seal. But really big sharks of two tons or more could be a serious threat to even adult male southern elephant seals, although probably not to the outliers weighing 4000-5000 kgs. There are a number of accounts of large great white sharks predating or at least attacking male elephant seals of up to 2700 kgs, meaning they were likely equal to or larger than the shark. In fact, in some areas, adult males get attacked more frequently than the smaller females. I posted those accounts and pics in the SW croc v. great white shark thread. It would require a very large adult GW to have the bite volume and strength to seriously damage and cripple a full size southern elephant bull. Apparently, great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals before. Whether they were adult males is unknown to me. Wait..what's this about not proposing the average individuals? Isn't that the most meaningful way to do these kind of topics? If a topic says GWS vs southern elephant seal, then that should by default mean an average individuals of both. I really thought that's not even a question. Taking a 6m 2500kg great white as a representative of the species is like taking Shaquille o'neal as the representative of human species. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 7:54:26 GMT 5
^Same could be said for the elephant seal.
sam1 who would you favor with a 5 ton seal vs 2.5 ton shark?
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Post by sam1 on Apr 27, 2019 16:58:52 GMT 5
..hard to say, maybe about 60:40 in favor of the seal.
At those weights both animals should become relatively sluggish. I imagine seal still being able to overpower the shark most of the time but a 2.5ton gws should have a significant chance to deal serious and possibly fatal damage.
p.s. a southern elephant seal weights around 3000kg on average vs 1000kg average of the shark so I don't see what you mean with "same could be said about the seal"
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 17:05:12 GMT 5
I meant taking a 5 ton elephant seal as the average is the exact same (essentially) as with taking a 2.5-3 ton shark and using it as an average.
And boy oh boy, this is going well. All the debating from the old days with none of Taipan's tyranny!
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rock
Senior Member Rank 1
Posts: 1,586
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Post by rock on Apr 27, 2019 20:31:30 GMT 5
I meant taking a 5 ton elephant seal as the average is the exact same (essentially) as with taking a 2.5-3 ton shark and using it as an average. And boy oh boy, this is going well. All the debating from the old days with none of Taipan's tyranny! you mean that dude of carnivora? |
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 27, 2019 20:51:46 GMT 5
I don't think anyone is proposing that this matchup entails an average size adult GW shark v. an average size bull southern elephant seal. But really big sharks of two tons or more could be a serious threat to even adult male southern elephant seals, although probably not to the outliers weighing 4000-5000 kgs. There are a number of accounts of large great white sharks predating or at least attacking male elephant seals of up to 2700 kgs, meaning they were likely equal to or larger than the shark. In fact, in some areas, adult males get attacked more frequently than the smaller females. I posted those accounts and pics in the SW croc v. great white shark thread. It would require a very large adult GW to have the bite volume and strength to seriously damage and cripple a full size southern elephant bull. Apparently, great whites have preyed on southern elephant seals before. Whether they were adult males is unknown to me. Wait..what's this about not proposing the average individuals? Isn't that the most meaningful way to do these kind of topics? If a topic says GWS vs southern elephant seal, then that should by default mean an average individuals of both. I really thought that's not even a question. Taking a 6m 2500kg great white as a representative of the species is like taking Shaquille o'neal as the representative of human species. When I analyze these type of interspecific conflicts, I like to think about realistic confrontations between the species, not hypotheticals that never would happen in real life. So yes, I agree an average size adult great white (although depending on the geographical regions 1000 kms is likely below average weight for an adult female) would not likely attack a 3000 kg southern bull. However, merely average size great whites don't attack adult bull size northern elephant seals either. Only the large shark adults, male or female, will predate bull elephant seals. However, in those real life conflicts, which pit animals closer to the same size, the seals decidedly gets the worst of it. They are killed or injured badly, whereas the shark rarely takes any damage, at least none which has been reported. Given how few great whites there are, it's quite a stretch to say a 2500 kg great white is as rare as a Shaquille O'Neal. We know historically by the fossil record that great whites likely exceeded such sizes before man's impact on the environment. In any event, great whites of two tons or more, which really isn't all that uncommon for adults with large prey source, would be a potential threat to the average size bull southern elephant seal, i.e one weighing 3000 kgs or so. However, the really giant ones are likely beyond the capabilities of even the largest great whites. Still, I see no evidence that elephant seals have ever caught or injured great whites, so until I see that, I see most likely either a predation by the shark, or a failed attempt which injures the seal to some degree, but does not kill it. |
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Post by theropod on Apr 27, 2019 21:34:15 GMT 5
But predators always favour attacking animals when the chances are in their own favour, there’s nothing much to debate about that. That way you always favour one or the other, depending on which one you assume will try to initiate a confrontation. The conditions where a great white would most likely attack an elephant seal are also the conditions where an elephant seal would be least inclined to seek a confrontation with the shark, and vice versa.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 21:48:24 GMT 5
I meant taking a 5 ton elephant seal as the average is the exact same (essentially) as with taking a 2.5-3 ton shark and using it as an average. And boy oh boy, this is going well. All the debating from the old days with none of Taipan's tyranny! you mean that dude of carnivora? Yep, you got that right. Have you ever been a member on Carnivora or had a run-in with him? You'd know EXACTLY how nasty he is if you did. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Apr 27, 2019 21:51:51 GMT 5
But predators always favour attacking animals when the chances are in their own favour, there’s nothing much to debate about that. That way you always favour one or the other, depending on which one you assume will try to initiate a confrontation. The conditions where a great white would most likely attack an elephant seal are also the conditions where an elephant seal would be least inclined to seek a confrontation with the shark, and vice versa. Well yes, I suppose that is true. The reason I favor the great white is because of its vastly better maneuverability in water (elephant seals aren't exactly aquatic ballerinas), which would allow it to land asome good bites, them simply swim away, wait for the seal to weaken, and come in for the final attack. elosha11 if needed we could include fossil great whites here as well. If I recall correctly, in AvA, fossils of an extant animal are still fair game for usage in interspecific conflict |
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